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Boston College Lecture Transcript
The Art of Surviving the Entertainment Industry
Moderator: Michael Civille - '94 (MOD)
Faculty Member in Film Studies ProgramGuests: David James Elliott (DJE)
John Jetsyn Tache' - '84 (JJT)
MOD:
(Our guests this evening are) John Jetsyn Tache', who is a class of '84 graduate of Boston College and a screenwriter in LosAngeles, and also David James Elliott, who is the star of the television show JAG. Before we get started, we're just going to show you a brief little clip, and then we'll go from there. We'll introduce our guests, and I'll have a little Question and Answer with them myself, and then we'll open it up to the floor. Hopefully, since I get a sense there's a mix here of film students, communication students and JAG fans (laughter), I'm gonna try to do my best to mix and match the questions so everyone will get a little something out of my questions. But, then as I said, at the end of the show, you'll be able to ask away, OK? So let's start with the clip.
(Little bit of theme, some credits, and scene from Jagathon where Harm ends up giving Mac a 6 minute head start instead of 3 minutes.)
MOD:
Alright...well, please welcome John Jetsyn Tache' and David James Elliott. (strong applause)
DJE:
Thanks. (Smiling - Being given mike). At least somebody was here. I always have a fear that nobody would come. (laughter)
MOD:
I'm going to do my best James Lipton impression--I'm prepared with my cards. (David looking at him/smiling) Basically, I think I'd like to just start off with asking you guys--How did you get to JAG? How did you get as an actor there, and also as a writer to have a produced script that made it to television?
JJT:
Script-wise, I went to town with a couple hundred bucks in my pocket, and I thought that the way to sell a script was to get an agent, go through the proper channels. But once you get to town, there's a whole bunch of different rules that apply. Basically, I started writing in 1986 and I got to town with a script in 1993. I guess, to put it in short, the best way to sell a script or the best way to get noticed in Hollywood -- the secret is you could be William Shakespeare, you could be Robert Ludlum, but it's who you know and when you know them. Fortunately for me, I have a twin brother who went to school here with me also in 1983, and we formed a business which got us onto the sets and got us through a lot of back doors. Fortunately for me, my twin brother and I met David early on. Joe talked to David and David really loved running, so one of the first things I was able to write for television was this Jagathon story, and from there we kind of hit it off and that's how I got started.
MOD:
What was the business that got you onto the film sets?
JJT:
Entertainment marketing -- it's called product placement and now its called brand integration, but the great thing about it was that all the scripts from the studios came through the door of our business for the product, so I got to read what Robert Towne was writing, I got to read what the next Sidney Sheldon script was.......So I was always privy to the scripts that were coming in.......so I got in the back door (pause) the side window.....(laughter) basically.MOD:
David?
DJE:
I went to college like you guys and studied acting for 4 years, and then I started doing theater in Canada.
MOD:
Are you from there?
DJE:
Yeah, I'm Canadian - I didn't mean to be (laughter), but that's where I'm from and got started in the business that way. I got an agent. Somebody I knew (pause)....I worked at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival Company for a couple of years, and somebody there hooked me up with an agent. Then I went out to Hollywood. because there was an ad in the paper -- this is how goofy Hollywood is -- they were looking for a Davy Crockett. Disney was going to do a Davy Crockett movie, which was a back-door pilot, and he sent a tape down, they sent back some material, we put it on tape and sent it back down. They said, You know, we'd like to see this guy. So they flew me down and I screen tested at Disney, and the head of casting there liked my screen test and hooked me up with her agent. I didn't get that job, but Disney gave me a holding deal. They paid me -- it was $20,000 -- to not work for 3 months while they wrote a TV show just for me, because they loved me that much. (laughter) So I went back to Canada with this money and kept working there. Then when they had written the script, they flew me back in, and I had to test again. Then they told me this script they had written specifically for me, that I was too young to play the part, (laughter) so the thing was never made, but I wound up with an agent.
MOD:
How old were you?
DJE:
I don't know, maybe 28. But the agent that she hooked me up with asked if I would consider coming down, so I took a little money (I had) -- I was doing a television series at the time in Canada, and I went to Hollywood and I continued to work on that on week-ends. I'd fly back on Fridays, shoot for a couple of days, go back to Hollywood, audition with this new agent, and basically integrated myself softly into the deal down there. Then I wound up auditioning for JAG eventually. You know, I did a series called The Untouchables, which was shot in Chicago. That went 2 years. They told me (David laughs) when we auditioned for that (pause).....we were waiting in the room--there were 8 guys that had been there all day. They auditioned everyone and then slowly narrow it down. Are there other acting students out here today? You guys teach acting?--great! And then they came down to the final meeting. It was supposed to be the final meeting, which it wound up not being. But we were at Paramount in the offices of the big shots, and they came out and said--the casting director, (who) was one of the great casting directors--he said, whoever gets this part will be set for life--you'll never have to work again--WOW! (strong laughter) Heap the pressure on a little more! So I got the part, and, of course, the series went less than 2 years, and I was not set for life. (laughter) And that's kind of how it happened.
MOD:
Is it true? John, you mentioned it's who you know. I've heard someone say, it's not who you know, but who knows you.
JJT:
I think it's who you know and when. Basically it's a timing thing. The first thing I did when I had my scripts, I went and I made phone calls to agents--literary agents. I went from William Morris all the way down to ICM--to all the great literary agents that I thought were good. Every literary agent that I ended up speaking with, they had a full roster of clients. So they had no time for the new kid on the block. So then I started cold calling the studios. I had written them a spec script--that I still think is a very original idea that Hollywood hasn't hit upon yet, that's still in certain places right now--but I had a really good idea. So I got into a couple of people's offices, acting as my own agent--"Can I come in and pitch you, will you read the script, please, please, please". Then I met this guy and he knew this one's trainer and then this one over here and this one's hair stylist....I went through that route, which you usually do, and I came across a lot of dead ends. But it was very hard at first just to get noticed, because unlike being an actor, when you're a writer, you have to actually get people to read what you've written. And in a town with an attention span of maybe 5 seconds, it is very, very hard to get the higher ups to read something from the new kid on the block, especially a 70 or 120 page spec script. So that was my dilemma when I went out there.DJE:
Yeah, most of those offices have readers, people--assistants-- who read the scripts for the guy. I've known a few people who were readers that go home with a stack of 15 or 20 scripts and try and read through them.
MOD:
Is it true that the reader then gives notes to the executive and he then..... words fade away under David's response
DJE:
Yeah, he'll break it down and grade the scripts--this one isn't worth reading, this is--so it's a tough game. It's a tough game on any level that you do. Especially starting the way John did without any connections and try and go in that way. You really need a thick skin. It's a difficult thing. So when I met John, I helped him in any way that I could. I wasn't a magic pill for him, but I got him some meetings with some people, and maybe my influence helped somewhat. But John had to go in and close the deal, and he did that. Then he and I starting writing together. We wrote a couple of JAG scripts, which they bought. Then we've since written a pilot for a new deal I have at ABC. We wrote one pilot and we're working on a second one.
MOD:
So what is the process for you guys of co-writing. Like I know I have a lot of screenwriting students or students who are interested. What is the process of co-writing for you? How does that work?
JJT:
He grabbed me and said "we're going to the desert"--I think it was before last summer.
DJE:
I had a house in Palm Springs at the time.
JJT:
We went through about 20 (pause)..... David had a very good idea--
DJE:
We went with a germ of an idea--this is the feeling I want, this is the character--then we researched the genre, as it were.
JJT:
(Shakes his head Yes) -- and then we sat on the couch and we discussed--this plays, this doesn't play. We discussed this and we discussed that, and then we agreed upon a general direction, and then we both wrote down our notes. Then he re-writes me and I re-write him, and he says "that's"--what do you call it? (asking David) --"that's hokey, Jetsyn, it wouldn't be this way". It's just basically expanding upon an idea and trying to turn that idea into something.
DJE:
See, it's (pause)..... Because sometimes we'll sit and write together. When we wrote the JAG scripts, we'd sit in a room and we'd work together. Then other times, John will be really passionate about an idea, and he'll go off and write his thing and then I'll read it and I'll re-write it, and then we'll get together, and he'll take the edge off of this or that or argue a point. One of the great things about John is you can talk to him about his script without worrying about offending his sensibilities, although some writers are really prissy about every word remaining there. Having starred in a television series for 10 years and having worked with a lot of different writers, some were easier to work with than others. Especially in television, you can't be overly sensitive about your material, because there are a lot of opinions that need to be weighed. Well, even in films--unless you're on tour and you're writing, directing and producing your own thing--even in movies they'll go "yeah, we like your script--thank you very much--we're going to have him re-write it", and then you've lost it at that point. And though you have--I think it's the first 2 writers--don't know what that rule is (asking JJT)--the first 2 writers get the screen credit, but there could be 15 writers on the thing. Once you hand it over, it's not yours anymore.
MOD:
But you get paid for it?
DJE:
You get paid! (laughter) You know, at the beginning, it's big! At the beginning I found out at theater school, all these guys who are like, I'm never going to do television or film--I'm going to remain the artist just doing theater. And now you see them --now they're in commercials and doing anything to make ends meet. It's a difficult business.
JJT;
My first meeting (pause)..... Dave got me my first meeting and I remember the date (fades..). Most people go for a pitch meeting, and they go in and pitch their ideas. So I actually wrote outlines--5--3 or 4 page outlines--we called them compositions in high school, but I wrote these 5, 4-page outlines. I remember standing in front in the hallway with the gentleman I was supposed to have a meeting with, and he was one of the executive producers of the show. I'm standing there (with him) and I don't even know what he looks like. I'm waiting and I'm waiting. Then I see this older gentleman with a beard walking down the hallway, and before he gets to me, someone yelled out from a side office and he looked in the office--and I heard him--he said, "Oh, I've got this meeting I've gotta take and I'll be back in 5 minutes". So I'm at the door with my 6 treatments that I've written, and I'm going, "Like, OK, this is the guy's attitude coming in and I'm going to pitch my 6 outlines to him hoping that he'll like one of them, since Dave got me the meeting". So we sat down and I pulled out my outlines, and he said, "Oh, you did a lot of work there, huh?" And then he says, "First thing, if I've written it, if you've got a JAG episode that you've written about that we've done, I'm going to tell you. Or if you have a JAG episode that we're writing now, I'm going to stop you right there and tell you right there and that will be it". I said, "Don't worry. I've done my homework on you. I've seen every JAG episode and I even know the ones you've written", and I even commented on that. So a 5 minute meeting turned into a 45 minute meeting, and they did pick out Jagathon as the first storyline for me. And it got me started and got me on the threshold to where I'm trying to get.
MOD:
Let me ask you this. You mentioned writers on a TV series and you both have some writing experience. It's kind of (pause)..... People often equate writers on a feature film, let's say, if it's not on a tour film, they get less respect (DJE says "yeah", shaking head yes) or their ideas are kind of thrown to the back. But whenever I see, let's say on the Golden Globes or the Emmys or something, an actor win, they always seem to thank the writer first and foremost or the writers--they always say "without the writing...." And it seems the writer garners more respect in television. Is that true?
DJE:
I think in the theater the writer garners more respect. In a film, it's the directors media and the writer is a pain in the ass at a certain point, unless they start putting (pause)..... I know--I have a friend who works with Robert Redford who (says) he doesn't mind having the writer around for a while, but he starts having opinions, then he's off the set, he's barred from the set. In television, writer/producers are the king. Generally what happens, in my experience, is you get the script and in television, as I said, you really can't be overly sensitive about material, because a lot of opinions need to be weighted. I would always give notes on a script. The director will give notes during the 8-day prep. I've directed some of the episodes of JAG, too, and as you prep, you help (pause)..... It's more of a work in progress right up to the very end. Different colored pages come out so that you know where the changes have been made, and that you're up to date on the script by the dated colors on the front. So it's constantly changing. Where, like in the theater, you generally take a play and it's already done and you come to it. But in movies and TV, it generally comes to you, I guess.
JJT:
One great lesson I learned in TV is when I first learned to write, somebody taught me how to write. They said, "Be creative. Don't put any restrictions upon yourself". So I was writing hour-long television shows that were basically features. I'd have helicopters flying and I'd have boats crashing and car chases. By that time, the budget of my wannabe TV show was set at probably like $20 million (laughter). So you have to learn to write within a budget, also because each show has a price tag to it, and that's how it's going to be produced.
DJE:
But that's also how--like when you're selling a script, like if you went to pitch a series idea--John, you and I were both told when we first pitched this idea we had for a script, we initially came in with those budgetary concerns. But Hollywood, like I guess every other business, has changed over the years, and people that lack imagination really are allowed to have an opinion and are in control--kid lawyers basically. So you have to write the hell out of the thing and then you trim it down later--adjust later. But in order to capture their imagination, you've got car chases and bombs blowing up downtown New York (laughter)--write the hell out of the thing and trim it later after you sell the idea. It's a process, it's a game I guess, and it's a business, and you really have to approach it like a business.
MOD:
You mentioned directing a couple of episodes. As a director of a series that is well known, has its own style--did you feel that restricted your creativity or actually you found you were able to be more creative within that kind of framework?DJE:
I felt that I wasn't as hampered as a lot of people would have been, because I was the star of the show. So I knew I would have leeway and people would allow me to do things that they wouldn't allow other people to do, by virtue of my position. So I just went and had fun. The man that I worked for was a bit of a taskmaster and I guess a menacing guy on some levels for some people, and he created a lot of fear in certain directors, and I didn't allow that to hamper my ideas. So I just went out and played. I did things that I thought would be neat and fun, and in fact, he responded well to it. So it was a show that really the only criteria that I remember, and it's just a natural thing, you wanted the camera to always be moving. You watch the styles change over the years. 70's TV was very stiff. They didn't move the camera a lot, and as years have gone on, they brought in Steadicam. Initially it was like a jewel you could rent--very expensive--you would bring in for specific shots. Now every television show has a Steadicam guy--generally a camera operator who is also a Steadicam guy, so that it's always there and always available. We had the luxury of having at least 3 cameras available at any point. So you can make up a lot of time that way. But I guess to answer your question, Yes and No. (laughter)
MOD:
Talk a little bit about just back on what you were saying--you had mentioned a lot of it is luck and so on. In terms of persistence, is there a fine line between persistence and annoyance, and does it matter?
DJE:
Tact! You've got to have tact in anything you do. You've got to be really aware.
JJT:
Like David said earlier, don't go to town vulnerable, go to town with a plan, go to town with a bank account, go to town with a place to stay, and most of all, go to town with a suit of armor on, because what one person's opinion of your work will be on one side of town, will be totally different on another side of the town. So never, ever take anything to heart negative that somebody says about you. If you can learn by it, fine. But if you take it to heart-- you say "I'm no good because this guy doesn't think I'm any good" and you get negative on it, then you'll never survive.
DJE:
I remember at theater school, they said "if you can be dissuaded by anyone, then you really shouldn't be here". And it's something that I tell my children, is that I would only ever listen to the positive people. If anyone ever had anything negative to say to me, I just blocked it out of my mind. As far as tact goes, you certainly need tact, but I always believed that if you had talent and if you're in the game, then you haven't lost, and you never give up, and you still have a chance. I know guys who sit at home and they wait for the phone to ring and they go "oh yeah, maybe the agent will call". I'm going every day! Because some people you can bother and then there's other people you can't bother. So I would bother my agents and get them to bother (pause)..... It's an odd business, because you're not selling--like John's out selling a product--and in other businesses their pushing this or that. It's easier for him to stand there and say "this vacuum cleaner is awesome", and puts on a show that is visually beautiful, you know. But it's difficult for me to go in and say "I'm the greatest guy in the world, and you need to hire me, because I'm the guy". But it's easier to have (pause)..... That's why we have agents and managers, and they've also protected themselves with lawyers. I mean, I've got more hands in my pockets than (pause)..... You know, here's something that I wish they'd taught us at theater school, was the business end of this business, and how to handle that. That's something that I had to pick up along the way It's really something worth exploring. I don't know what your program here is like, but certainly you'd arm your students for the real world, if you also taught them the business side of the business and how to deal with that. Because you fall prey to everybody (that) comes across like your pal and they have your best interests at heart, and they're really one of the few people who actually cares about you. But they all have that dollar sign in their eye, and they see you as a way to make money. You have business managers who take 5% of the gross income, lawyers who take 5% of your gross, agents take 10%, managers take 10-or-15% of your gross, the government takes, what?, 47%, and that doesn't leave you much. (laughter) I remember when I first got JAG and I was making a salary, I was driving home at 4 a.m. after working, like a 19-hour-day--and there had been many 19 hour days in a row--and I was doing the math in my head as I was trying to stay awake driving home. And I thought, "My manager is making almost as much as I am and he's at home in bed". (laughter) So I called him the next morning (David laughs) and said, "Guess what! - You're either going to lose your job or cut your percentage down by less than half of what it is".
MOD:
Did he?
DJE:
Yep, he did. (laughter) It's difficult, because actors are sensitive people, artists are sensitive people. And people in this business prey on that, you know. They prey on your sensitivity and your feelings of loyalty, and they try and make you feel like--"you know, this is a personal thing you're doing"--but it's really a business thing, and it's hard to separate the two. So if you're taught those things in school, you might adjust to them a little sooner than when it's sudden. It's a business where you bust your ass for a long period of time, and then boom, one day it happens. You get that job and you start making more money than you've ever made in your life and you don't quite know where to go with it, you don't know what to do with it, and that's when the vultures move in, and that's when a lot of people make mistakes.
MOD:
Are they a necessary evil?
DJE:
Some of them are and some of them aren't. And there's a time to get some, and there's a time not to have them. Like I realize (pause)..... Like a manager--you need a manager if you're changing agents or if you're trying to break into another facet of the business. Say you made it in the TV end and you want to break into the movie end, and you're looking for someone who had connections somewhere. You might need a manager who might have some connections, and he could break some walls down that an agent might not. You need a lawyer later on when you're making bigger deals than you do initially. Like when I first got JAG, the lawyers showed up, the agents, the business managers were all over me. I really didn't need a lawyer at 5% of the gross at that period of time, or a business manager for 5% of the gross. And as it turned out, I went through business managers for a while, and now I don't have one for that (reason). We did the math, and we went--this is insane paying this guy this amount of money, and what is he doing, really? In fact, most of those guys were screwing up my accounts worse than I could possibly do, because they made false claims, and lawyers the same way. You really have to assess the situation and don't make these knee-jerk reactions when people show up on the set telling you, "Listen, you're going to have these problems". That's why guys like you (speaks to Moderator) or whoever their teachers are, should be filling them in on that whole area.
MOD:
John, do you have an agent right now?
JJT:
Actually, I'm represented by the same agent David is represented by, at UTA, a guy by the name of Jason.MOD:
And from a writer's perspective, you said you represented yourself early on. How about now, as you have a reputation now?
JJT:
Well, I think the smartest thing I've learned on the writing thing, when I first got to town, I met a vice president of the William Morris corporation, and I flipped him one of my scripts. He said, basically, the things you want to write are the things that are the easiest for me to sell as an agent. So if you're going to go to town, don't go to town with 1 script--go to town with, like 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 spec scripts, from everything from a sitcom to a feature film to a TV drama or whatever really, really interests you. That way you'll have 7 or 8 different or varied ideas that could fit into any different niche, depending upon who you meet and when you meet that person. So I still consider myself in the wannabe stages of things. I've busted my butt to try and get to the other side, but at the same time, I'm involved in the process now. Being with JAG the last couple of years has been a real education just behind the scenes. You read all those books, and you see all those movies about how Hollywood is this way and watch out for this one and watch out for that one, and you don't really believe it's true till you're there and you see it. I have a lot more respect for David, just simply because of the things he had to overcome just when he got to town and hearing his story. That made me tougher and made me say, "OK, I'm not going to quit", because there is a certain point where he could have quit, and he just sucked it up and kept going. So perseverance and persistence is very, very big, if you want to make it. I thought I'd go to town and sell a script in a week--I went in '93. I'd get my money and go home to my family and live off that money and have a good time. I ended up living on somebody's patio, and from'93 up until--what?, it's 2005 now?-- (laughter) Things got a little better financially--a lot better financially, but at the same time, it's been a process.
MOD:
Still on the patio? (laughter)
JJT:
(Laughs and shakes head No)
MOD:
That's an improvement.
DJE:
He's got a beautiful house on Redondo Beach on the waterfront. Things are working out for him really well.
MOD:
Just because I know you have some fans, let's talk about JAG for a second. On a long-running TV series, your character is bound to evolve. You always see that in any long-running series. You see the character change from beginning to end, whether they're lesser characters or principles or leads. How do you feel your character evolved, or did he, from the beginning to the end?
DJE:
Well, he did for me, and that certainly kept it interesting for me for 10 years for the long run. Shows wouldn't last that long if characters didn't evolve, and the relationships evolve certainly. Every year one of the things--that the writers would call, and they'd say, "what are you thinking about next year? Are there any ideas you have?
MOD:
So they would defer to you a lot?
DJE:
They would occasionally. Well, at the beginning of every year, there would be discussions. It seems like a series takes on a life of its own at a certain point, too. You go into every season with a plan, and plans change. I mean, we had a big plan one season and my co-star got pregnant, and everything changed. So things like that can happen. but you need a plan before you can change direction anyway. Otherwise, you're just at sea-- adrift. I guess you find out more about the character. That was one of the things--I said "Let's explore this or that. Let's find out who his friends are. Let's find out how he feels about certain issues". You're pretty much, as an actor, on the front lines. So you're just surviving script to script. You'll change stories up in midweek. You'll finish one episode on a Tuesday and start the next episode on Wednesday. So there's never a period of time where you go--"Ahhh (sigh of relief)--I did that one. Now let's think about this next one".
You're thinking about the next one in the middle of the one you're working on. So it's almost a bit of a struggle to get through, and you put your best foot forward, and you try and keep everyone's spirits up. Something that my producer told me early on--he said, "Listen, you're the main guy. Everyone is looking to you. You've got to keep everyone bucked up, and gotta keep them focused. You gotta make sure the set remains focused and get through the day".
MOD:
No pressure.....DJE:
There's an enormous amount of pressure in that position, and then some people rise to the challenge, and other people fall apart. I always looked at it as a business. I enjoyed the process, and I enjoy the craft. But if you approach it in a business sense, then you're more likely to not be taken hostage by it. You have to become a bit of a zen master to really pull that off. I have a wife and 2 children, and I need to pay attention to them (gestures up toward Nanci), as well as to that. And you have publicity, on top of doing the show and doing the work there, and you still have to maintain a level of "Q" (popularity quotient) in the public eye. You want to have a life as well, right? So I managed to do that for 10 years. I found a formula for me.I remember talking to Tom Selleck and Scott Bakula--two guys whom I respected--and I knew certainly Tom had been in a position like mine for a long period of time. When I first met him, that was my first question--"How did you keep it alive for that long?" And he said, "Find something you can hang your hat on and always put your best foot forward". It took me a while to figure out what he meant.....hmmm.....find something you can hang your hat on..... But I think I did, and I managed to do that. I found ways to stay sane on the set. There's a lot of down time on the set--they're lighting (pause).... You can fall prey to the insanity. There's a lot of gossip on the set, and you can hang around and talk madness with people or you can retire to your trailer and find some sanity there. I played guitars and wrote music, and found musicians in the crew, and we'd get together and jam. Or John and I would work on scripts. Found some way to remove yourself so that when you started again, you're fresh and alive and you're energy was up.
MOD:
Seems like after 10 years, it would run the risk of becoming routine.
DJE:
Yeah, and that's something I fought against--and to the credit of everyone on the show I think--I always tried to. Certainly the personnel changed over the years, but there were some who were there from the beginning, and everybody really felt they gave 200%. That was important, and that was something that I always tried to propagate when I was here--keep it fun and alive and keep putting your best foot forward--you know, take
it seriously. A lot of people start phoning it in after a certain point. I couldn't do that. I couldn't live! I couldn't (just) show up every day--it would be such a drag. But I felt after 10 years--I decided that was it for me. It had run its course, and I made a decision to leave and go over to ABC to develop a new show.
MOD:
Can you talk about it?
DJE:
Well, it's still in the fledgling stages. You know, John and I, as I said, have 2 series ideas, and we're going to be pitching them soon. When I went into the first meetings to talk about possibly coming over there, with the head of the network and the heads of the departments, I told them briefly about my ideas and they seemed excited about them. It's a great network. ABC is really up and coming. They have some fresh ideas. So I'm excited. If it's not one of our ideas, it will be an idea that comes to me, and then I believe John will be there, and we'll develop it and make it a better idea. So whatever it is, we'll be involved in the creative process.
MOD:
So you guys both consider yourselves a team, where you're going through it.....
DJE:
You know, in this business--I don't want to monopolize the mike--but there's a lot of strange characters out there. And if you can find some people you can work with that you trust and work well with, then if you can be with those people, all the better for your sanity. So I found a guy whom I respect and care about and work well with, and I'd like him to be in my life professionally.
JJT:
He's not monopolizing the mike. He's had 20 times more experience than I have. I learn from him every day, and I learn from the process every day. There's not a thing (pause)..... I get upset sometimes and I'd get mad at some things that the studio would do, and you always kept my head level. I'm from Boston and played football here in the Fluty (Quarterback/Doug Fluty) years. I'm kind of a hothead at certain times, and he took that out of me. You can't (pause)..... You've got to be almost like a poker player in Hollywood and keep your emotions in check. The greatest lessons I've learned from David are to keep your emotions in check and always be creative, always be persistent, and most importantly, never, ever quit--and I owe him for that.MOD:
You guys talked about pitching this new idea. I've tried to put into one of my classes the importance of the pitch and how to pitch a short script idea. Talk a little bit to them, because it doesn't seem to resonate with them (laughter) and they get up there and mumble through some kind of......
DJE:
Well, you're selling an idea first off, so you better be locked in on the focal point. Here's a perfect example. My wife and I produce--(gestures up toward Nanci)--we have a production company, and we went to Merv Griffin--to drop a name--is a friend of ours, and Merv has a production company. So we went to Merv and were pitching an idea for a film. We loved the idea--a friend of ours had the idea initially, and then we helped him change it somewhat because he had pitched it to a few people around town--anyway, Merv had never heard it. So we pitched it at another place, and it was a beautiful pitch. They loved the idea, but nothing happened with it. So we went to Merv. We went into the room, and Josh, our other partner, is doing the pitch and he's selling this idea. Well, the pitch went on too long, and Merv is a very busy man.
MOD:
What's too long?
DJE:
Well, I guess you have 5-10 minutes to sell your story, and we sold the story for about 25 minutes--(laughter) (David's smiling/looks up
atNanci)--an hour--(laughter) OK, even worse!--went on for an hour, and the first thing Merv said was, "Oh my God!
That's the longest pitch I've ever had to sit through. Listen, I have got 4 meetings that I'm already late for, and I don't have time", and it wound up being a bad deal. So we never sold it to Merv, and he was a friend! So keep the pitch short and to the point and interesting. You should practice the pitch in front of your friends and get it down. Don't go in and try to wing it, thinking--oh, I have an idea... (points to John) Like one of ours we wrote (pause)..... The first script pilot that we actually wrote the script--and I thought, I know what I want the series to be, but there are certain facets of it that I want to be unknown for a period of time and to develop in the first year of the show. There are certain things that I want to remain mysterious for a while.
And, I wasn't sure how to pitch that. So I said to John, screw it--we won't write a pitch. Generally what you do is write a piece, of a page or two, as a brief synopsis or outline, and you hand that around. Then you'll pitch it, so they can later basically see what your pitch was on paper and try and re-remember it if they're interested. I wasn't quite sure how to do that without cheating the piece, in my mind. So I said, let's just write the whole thing. Normally what you want to do, you go that route, hoping they'll pay you to write it. But I said, let's just do it for free--screw it--write the whole thing. So that's what we did. We haven't pitched that yet. But I was even told now that we (still) gotta come up with a pitch somehow before we hand the script over, for fear that it will fall into the hands of a reader, and then all our efforts will have been for nought. But I guess to answer your question--keep it brief, keep it interesting and keep it fetching. Practice it in front of your friends and really get it down. It's like giving a speech, doing a party piece. It's an audition, so you're on--be interesting.
JJT:
Be interesting--be interesting is the big thing. If it doesn't hold your interest, if this doesn't hold your interest, if the storyline doesn't hold your interest (pause)..... Whenever I went in to a pitch meeting, I just in my head--I always thought, what's this (pause)..... Well, the other thing I used to do, too, I did a lot of homework. I get Biography magazine, so that anybody I ever met with, I'd know about them. I'd know where they were from, I'd know what school they went to, I tried to find some common thread of interest. So when I was going to pitch this person, I'd know what his interests were and his likes were. If I didn't do my homework on the person I was going to pitch, then it was my fault for not knowing what this guy likes or what he dislikes.DJE:
UhHuh, absolutely--take it seriously. There was a (pause).... I sat once in a pitch meeting with Don Bellisario in the beginning-- I think it was the second season of JAG. I happened to walk in the office and writers were coming in pitching ideas, because--I think the Writer's Guild rule is--they had to buy 3 spec scripts from outside writers for every season on every show. So writers came in--generally came in with 3 ideas, they'll sit in the room and sit in front of the head creator and the writers, and throw their ideas out there. It was an interesting process. It was interesting--they all had some great ideas, and it was all about presentation, really, that sold anything. Just a quick little side story just so you'll know what your liable to run into-- When I was auditioning for the show, Don had a co-executive producer, Howard Kazanjian, who'd done (looks to John)
-- he did the Spielberg (movie)--Raiders of the Lost Ark--a big producer in Hollywood. He was doing the series with Don, and there were some other producers around at the time. And I'm going in for the third audition, and I read, and Don goes, "Ok, sit down". And he tells this nasty joke, and he makes the butt of the joke the co-executive producer, and then he's watching me (laughter), and this guy's watching me! (laughter) (David smiles) Do I laugh at his (Don's) joke to the detriment of this guy (co-exec)? I mean, it was a real political moment that I was thrust into. I obviously handled it well, because I got the job. But you never know what's coming your way.
MOD:
How did you handle it?
DJE:
I kind of laughed and then looked over at him, like--(David shrugs, gestures) (laughter) (David laughs) It was a difficult moment, but I managed to tread that fine line, which I guess Don was hoping I would.
MOD:
Do you guys find there are moments like that where it's make-or-break, where something just happens at the drop of a hat, and its survival of the fittest at that point?
JJT:
To me, survival of the fittest is always just being able to pay my rent (laughter). But in terms of (pause)..... But when I go into a room and I know the people I'm dealing with-- Like when I first walked into a pitch with JAG, David told me about the person I was going to talk with--he's this, he's this, he's this, he likes this, he likes that--so I least knew he liked hockey, and I spoke to him a few minutes about hockey before I went in there. There are certain times to laugh, there are certain times not to laugh, there are times to keep your mouth quiet and let the experts around you voice their opinions. When we went in for (pause)..... I guess the big trial thing was when we wrote our pilot for ABC. The big thing was going in to meet with UTA agents and getting their approval on it and what they thought about it. That, to me, in terms of my life, that was a big, big make-or-break moment for me--when these guys, the head literary agents at UTA liked something we put together and got their approval on it.
DJE:
Yeah, I called them and said, "Listen--I've written a script and I want you to read it". "Uh, OK"--and you could just hear--you knew-- Oh great, David's written a script and I have to read it. But they really liked it, they were blown away. I got a message from two of them before we left --Wow, it was awesome! They really liked the script, so they were pleasantly surprised. I was thinking of a story--to touch on that--I auditioned years ago for what wound up to be the most successful Canadian play ever. It ran for 2 years and went to the Edinburgh Theatre Festival and eventually it was going to go to Broadway. I left the show at that point. But I went in to audition for it, and after the audition, the director sat me down and he goes, "Alright, so why do you want to be an actor?"
I don't know what happened--at that point God stuck his hand up in my mouth and then I went, "Why do you want to be a director? Who gives a shit! Basically this is the bottom line--if you don't hire me for this role, you're crazy, because I'm the only guy who can play it and that's it!" And I got up and I walked out and I thought, Oh My God! I didn't have a job, and I didn't have any money, and I was looking at hard times. I walked home and thought, I had just blown, not only this job, but probably my career, because Toronto is a pretty small town. I wasn't home 10 minutes, and the phone rang, and I got the job. So you never know what's going to work.
MOD:
But that's a pitch in and of itself, right?, when you pitch yourself as well as your work?
DJE:
I guess--you know, I was sitting outside myself and listening to it as it went down, saying to myself Oh My God, I can't believe you just said that.MOD:
Last two questions from me......First off--for actors in the audience and also for budding directors--one of the hardest classes for me to teach is about directing actors, because each actor is different and each person has a different style. How do you like to be directed? What is your advice to the directors?.....the actors?
DJE:
First of all--generally, how we did it in the theater is you explore it initially and then you come together on the piece. Nobody likes to be told (describes with gestures) stand here, walk over there, do that and then you move over here. Occasionally, if it's a particularly stylish piece, you may have to succumb to that kind of direction. But generally, want to explore the piece, find where it motivates you to go, and then you kind of come together and you work together on a piece. I've had (pause)..... I mean I've worked with so many directors over the years. I remember right out of theater school, first season in Stratford, this director came in and he was a new director. He had been at home with a model of the set, and he had little toothpick actors on little stands (laughter) ----- you do this--tuh,tuh,tuh,tuh,tuh (gestures like moving the toothpick stands around on the model), you go here and you cross over there ---
and the entire cast is looking around at each other (imitates raised eyebrows/look of cast's unspoken reaction), oh yeah, that's gonna be happening! (laughter) You know, what I've found, if directors take acting classes, it will help them to learn how to talk to actors. If you understand (pause)..... There are a lot of people I find, who come from the technical end of things--like camera people first and they come from that background--are less in touch with how a story unfolds and how to talk to actors, than directors who come from, say, a theater background. And there's no easy advise for actors. When I first came out of theater school and when I went to Hollywood, a lot of guys were taking scene study classes. And I thought, "I've just done that for 4 years--I don't need to do that, Ok?"
But I do it now. It's really not so much about acting as about keeping your chops, and it's a good idea--it's a good thing to do. In fact, I'll probably get back into a scene study class again just to keep working. And a lot of directors go and watch these scene study classes and watch how the teachers work with the actors, and that's a great idea. If you want to be a director, sit in some acting classes.
MOD:
And finally, both of you, after being in different places, ended up in LosAngeles. Since the theme of tonight is Surviving the Entertainment Industry, is going into the lion's den?--is that the necessary part of the process? As a writer, as an actor, if you're going to succeed, if you're going to survive the entertainment industry, do you have to end up out there?
JJT:
I always thought I could mail it in. I thought if I had the greatest idea in the world and nobody'd done it before, they'd have to listen--I'd send it out, and I could send every script in from Boston, hang out with my family whom I dearly love. I'm family oriented and love spending time with my family--I live in Salem, Massachusetts--and my whole focal point in life has been my family and my friends, and never been very big on material things. Hollywood--it's the most--I'm not calling it materialistic--but it's the most (pause)..... There's a lot of money around there, there's a lot of ego around there, and there's a lot of ..uh.. wickedness. It's not the nicest place in the world to hang your hat. It's a necessary means to make money. Everything is filming out there, but at the same time (pause)..... You can't be in Boston and go to an audition. You can't be in Boston and get an agent. You can't be in Boston and go and do a pitch everyday. You can't be in Boston and know what's going on in the trades, here. You have to be in the area, and I learned that by going out there. I thought I was going to stay a week in '93, and I've been out there ever since.
DJE:
My opinion is that if you can gain some experience before you go, to try and be a big fish in a big pond somewhere else first--like staying in Boston. I guess I'd have to say the opposite of what John felt. When I went out there, I'd already been on a television series for 5 years. I'd already worked in the business in front of a camera. I had a wealth of experience. I had tape. I'd worked in the theater. And when I went out there, I wasn't trying to crack this insanely huge nut with no experience. When we lived and worked in Chicago, they had a wonderful theater community there, and a lot of Hollywood productions came there, and they also had some of their own productions. Toronto was the same way. I don't know what Boston is like--I've only been here a couple times--but I would imagine that they have a theater community, and I would imagine that they shoot some things here, and I would imagine that they have talent agencies. It would be better (pause)..... You'd be better off starting here, gaining some experience here before going out there, because there are hundreds of thousands--everybody goes out there with the impression that they're going to be discovered. A guy does a commercial in his home town at some local television station. Well (snaps fingers) he figures "Well you know what? I've just found my profession. I'm going out to Hollywood or I'm going to New York". It's not that easy. Don't go out there until you're ready.Don't go out there until you have an agent. Because you're going to go out there and you're going to be knocking on doors with everyone else, and you're going to be ignored. You're going to get frustrated, and you're going to lose your dream, and you're going to come home. And don't forget why (pause)..... You know, I forgot (pause)..... Initially when I went out there, I did well. And then I went through a period where I lost my muse, I guess. I forgot why I got into the business. I kept going to meetings trying to figure what you wanted from me. What is it that they want?! And it wasn't until my wife and I went away for a couple of months, under the worse pressure! -- she was pregnant, we were deep in debt, and it looked as though we had no hope. We went to the Bahamas for 2 months, and I remembered why I got into it in the first place. I became an actor, not because I wanted to be rich and famous, but because I loved acting, and I loved what it was about, and I loved the history of it, and I loved the process. When I remembered that, I came back and went into the rooms, and I didn't care what you wanted! This is what I had to offer, this was my interpretation of the material I had--and I haven't stopped working since. So it's really important that you remember that, and that you go there and you own who you are. When you walk in a room, you own that space, and feel that you have a right to be there. A good way to do that is to gain some experience and some confidence in a smaller arena first. That would be my advice.
JJT:
If I may say something, too. I wish, I wish they would have had the program that you have now back when I was going to Boston College, because I was basically self taught. The first script I wrote, I thought I was doing it right. I had the character name on the left and then I put the dialog on the right. My first script ever (pause)..... It's a page a minute--I didn't even know that. My first script ever that I knocked off was 245 pages. (laughter) I was thinking this was a movie. I had no idea whatsoever. The first thing when I went to Hollywood, I found this thing--it was raw data--that 1 out of every 375,000 people who come to this town with a script, get their script bought. In my mind, I'm going to be that 1, and I just never quit. You have a tremendous advantage here in this Boston College program that you have here. And again, I wish you would have had this here when I was going to school.
